S2E30 - Sometimes We Need More Than Talk Therapy

I'm Darien Slayton-Fleming, and thank you for joining me on Get What You Need and Feel Good About It. Do you find it difficult to ask for what you need? Do you frequently feel misunderstood? Do you have a problem or cause that you would like to learn to manage more effectively? What makes it so hard for us to tell each other how we feel? And how do we speak up for ourselves so we get what we need? How do we do this respectfully so that we honor the needs and feelings of others? Together, we'll explore tips, strategies, and resources that when used mindfully and consistently will improve our results and enrich our relationships. Hello. Hello and welcome back to Get What You Need and Feel Good About It. I am Darien Slayton Fleming, your hostess, and today I am doing something a little bit different than usual. This podcast is all about getting what you need and feeling good about it, so that means sometimes having to speak up and advocate for what you need rather than allowing people to make your choices for you. Today I am welcoming a young lady named Erin Moore from Knoxville, Tennessee, and we are going to talk about people's experiences with different kinds of mental health therapy. When I met Erin, I learned that she has experienced a couple of therapy techniques that aren't all about just talk therapy, and it got me thinking about how talk therapy is helpful, but it's not always enough. And so I wanted to introduce our listeners to other options for therapy if you are needing support. So welcome, Erin. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me, Darien. It's glad— I'm glad to be here.

For sure. So I met Erin at an American Council of the Blind convention in St. Louis I was selling copies of my newest books that I just want to highlight here. I have written one book called My AI, which stands for Affirmations and Intentions, and another book called My AI: Affirming Intentional Self-Care. And if you want those books in Braille, you can write to me at [email protected] or go to embracehappiness.me on the web and order a Braille copy. Otherwise, those books, along with my other books, are on Amazon. And so Erin and I met, and she mentioned that she had experienced ketamine therapy, and I thought that was so interesting. So Erin, before we talk about the therapy strategies that we've planned to talk about, I know you're from Knoxville, but can you tell our listeners Just a little bit about yourself, like, what are your interests? Where do you live? Who do you live with? Maybe what makes you tick?

Yes, I live in Knoxville, Tennessee, and I have a home, and my roommate Alexis lives here with me, and Alexis is my best friend and sister I never had, so we have a lot of fun together, probably more than we should be allowed to have as adults, but it's all, it's all good fun. Um, I am an avid reader. Um, I am involved in church. Um, I love biking. And I just love hanging out with people, talking. Um, I, I love my pets. I am an animal person through and through.

And you have a special relationship that sort of completes your happiness in a way, correct?

Yes. A year ago, I met The guy who is now my boyfriend, Eric, and he is in Texas and we travel back and forth to see one another. Um, Eric is in cybersecurity with HEB Digital, and so it's easier that I go see him so he doesn't have to take off. So I've been getting a lot more familiar with independent travel and different situations that I may come across. So that is another big part of my life right now, is being more independent, traveling, and just having this new relationship.

You have a couple of special people in your life and lots of interests. And relationship is so important. It can really help us feel connected to people and to life and know that we have caring people that are there to support us. And this would just be a good time to lead into other kinds of support because we know that sometimes the special people in our lives are willing to listen to us and support us, but sometimes we need an outside objective view, or we might not want to share everything with our support people until we're ready. So that's when— Therapy can come in. And I wanted to talk a little bit about one kind of therapy that I know you've experienced, Aaron. And so I thought I would introduce some facts about it and then ask you about your experience with it. And the strategy that I know you've experienced is EMDR, which stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. And EMDR is a structured psychotherapy approach. It's best known for treating trauma and post-traumatic stress syndrome. Events, memories, but it can be used for other kinds of issues. And the basic idea behind EMDR is that it is used to help treat trauma and post-traumatic stress syndrome. And with it, the basic idea is that you identify experiences that have been triggering or difficult for you, or even memories of those events. And often they keep coming up because we haven't processed them adequately. And so we keep— life keeps getting interrupted with reminders of continued triggers that can be pretty intense emotionally, and we sometimes get physical sensations. in our bodies. They— we might be triggered by memories of events, and we don't just have thoughts about it. People who can see sometimes see images of those memories, and many of us have physical sensations in our bodies that can be associated with Those memories of those events. And so we're not only dysregulated emotionally in our heads, but sometimes we're not integrated with our bodies, and it's so uncomfortable. And what I've learned in my happiness work is that we integrate and heal more effectively when We can get in touch with not only our thoughts, but find comfort in our bodies. So EMDR helps with reprocessing those events so we can become less distressed and more integrated. And when we process those memories and experiences, We develop a more adaptive understanding of what we went through, and we learn distress tolerance techniques like how to use relaxation breathing and other coping skills, grounding techniques, relaxation techniques, so that we're not just changing how we think. but we're integrating with our bodies. And I have more information that we might talk about as we go through, but I don't want this to become a lecture. So, Erin, have you experienced EMDR? And what was it like for you?

Yes. So I had some things happen in my life about 11 years ago, and it wasn't just one specific thing. Um, there were several things that were layered, um, that I had not dealt with, and they just sort of all crashed in at the same time. Um, as it often does in PTSD, for just— it could take one event and everything just sort of unravels. I started doing research because the talk therapy that I was participating in, it, it just wasn't enough. And we're often told that, oh, if you go to therapy, if you do the work, the talking will help you, it'll make you better. And while talk therapy does indeed have its place in your toolbox for healing and processing, it is often just not enough. And that's what I found in my situation. So I began doing EMDR work, and there are several different ways to do EMDR, or that how the EMDR can be done to help you process. So you can use lights. There can be tapping on your leg. or legs because we're targeting both sides of the brain. But I think one of the most common ways is using these little paddles that you hold in your hands, and they send out little pulsing vibes at different intervals that the therapist will initiate when you're talking. And it basically hits both sides of your brain so that you're able to process things a little bit at a time because it's not an overnight fix. There's no therapy that is an overnight fix, unfortunately.

That's true. And, and as I was studying EMDR therapy, what— just a little bit about how it may go is your therapist will first do an assessment and help you explore your history and identify the triggering experiences, and then you might select a target experience to start with and Then you might explore a negative belief associated with that, and eventually you'll be able to add some work on identifying positive beliefs and using the same process to process what the emotions you're feeling and work on developing distress tolerance and working through the processing of those events so you can integrate. And so you're self-reporting throughout the process as the therapist guides you. But you don't have to describe and relive the entire experience all the time, and that's what I find I do in my own therapy with my therapist, is I'm always going over the same distressing memories, and I am not often learning to tolerate those and, and move towards integration. So how did that work for you? Um, have you— did you identify a target memory? And have you at all, with any of those experiences, have you gotten to a place of integration with any of that yet?

Well, it's been several years since I've actually done the therapy itself. However, um, there were memories and experiences that I had to try and process, and like you, I often got stuck in that loop. Yes. And I've learned a lot of things over the years, but I'll just skip forward here a minute and say that grounding techniques are one of those things that you should implement if you can right away. And it's not something that's just gonna click. But when you're processing these things, if you can think, okay, I'm here, I feel myself sitting in this chair, I feel the fuzzy blanket, I hear my cat purring, something like that to get you out of that loop. And The EMDR, there were a lot of back and forth, um, memories, things that I had experienced. Um, and a lot of the time you go over and over maybe one thing or a couple of things, and it's definitely a process, but I can say that Along with the EMDR, I have learned other techniques, and it's really just what works for you. And I hate to say that because that's such a broad generalization, but no 2 people are going to be the same. So just because one technique might be right for me doesn't mean it's going to be right for the next person. And so it's really just— becoming aware of not only your surroundings, but what your body is telling you. Because so often we're not regulated with both mind and body together. We kind of leave our bodies out. We just think, oh, I'm just feeling this because, you know, I've had a bad experience. And it's just about, I guess, becoming in tune with yourself. And it's a process.

Right. And let's talk about the grounding a little bit because these distress tolerance techniques that we learn, it is a process. We don't necessarily— just because we are told, well, just notice where you are and tell yourself you're safe in this environment and And that is part of grounding, and it is also not easy at first to be able to implement some of that in the moment. And I think that's part of why it's a process, because you need— we learn from repetition. And with that support and repetition, at some point— I know for me, I have suddenly been able to internalize the method and match it with the thought and say, oh, this is when I tell myself where I am. This is where I breathe. And then I'm able to start implementing That technique. And things like distress tolerance and grounding, the reason they work so well is because they bring us into the present moment. In order to be successful with those techniques, they bring us into the present moment. And so now we're able to— put the pieces together instead of being stuck in that memory. Our minds have a built-in negativity bias, which means that anytime we think we should try something new or different, our minds are going to go, oh, you might not want to do that. You might not be safe. And That was built into us as primitive human beings because it helped us run like hell from the tigers. But now we have a fast-paced society where we have to multitask and we need different tools. And that's why these grounding techniques and strategies like EMDR can help us Bring ourselves back into the present and integrate.

Darian, I just want to say one thing that I have learned is that, and this may be debatable among scholars, but our brains can really only do one thing at a time. So if you do the grounding, you're not going to be thinking about what happened when you were 5 years old, or it helps you get out of that spiral and It may only be just a second, and you can try to build it up and hold that grounding for a little longer. But if we do this, our brains aren't going to go straight back into that loop because you're basically interrupting that loop.

So it's— the goal isn't necessarily to erase the memory, but it's Helps us become less activated while helping us develop coping strategies, right? Yes, right.

It's more, I would say, no, it does not erase the memories, but it helps you to build yourself up emotionally so that you can say, okay, these things happened in the past. They're not happening now. They're not happening again. And so we just have to try to work through that, push through and become, I guess I would say, maybe comfortable with putting those things behind us. And it's, it's difficult because we see where we would like to be. We see the big picture. But then you feel absolutely helpless trying to get there because it's just one thing at a time.

So you gradually develop an ability to tolerate a little bit of discomfort because you know the tool to help you stay grounded.

Yes.

Right. And there's a process or a A theory called neuroplasticity, which says we know that we can create helpful neural pathways in our brain the more we practice something, and the stronger those neural pathways become, the weaker the unhelpful neural pathways become. So just to apply it to something more concrete, if you've never played the piano before and you want to learn how to play the piano, you get better at playing the piano the more you do it, the more you practice it. And I also like to apply it to learning how to use the computer. And so at first I might take a lot of notes about what I— what keystroke I need, and then what's the next one. But after I do it a few times, I don't need to look at my notes anymore. It's automatic. So what do you think about that, Erin? Do you feel like you have strengthened Some, some parts of your process so that it's easier to engage in it?

So the neuroplastic window after therapy is very important because you're basically rewiring your brain. Literally, you are making new pathways for new habits, new thoughts, And you may not feel that right away, but if you just continue to use these techniques, you will be enhancing this, this neuroplastic window. It's usually, I believe, 48 to 72 hours after a therapy session.

So, Erin, We also have talked about another therapy technique that goes beyond talk therapy, which you have experienced, and I was hoping that you would share a little bit about your experience with ketamine therapy with us.

Right. Ketamine-assisted therapy, for anyone who may not have heard of it, is very low doses of ketamine. A lot of people shy away from that, but this is administered in a medical environment, and it is very, very safe. This has been a technique that was first used in soldiers who were dealing with PTSD from war-related trauma, and it has since crossed over into the mainstream. And It's changing all of the time as we learn more about it. But basically, the ketamine lowers your awareness threshold. It is a dissociative drug, so it kind of takes you out of your own head, and it makes you— when a thought comes up, it doesn't seem so hard. And you might think, why am I making that so complicated in ordinary life? And ketamine basically takes away the emotions and all of the other things that might be flying around in our brains, and it lets you see it out on the table the way it really is. And it is helping you with this window of neuroplasticity. And that's why even after a session, the therapy is very helpful to help you to talk about it and to get, I guess, get what you need from, from your sessions.

Right. So it is a chemically assisted therapy that is administered very safely, and it allows you to dissociate in a way from the difficulty of the experiences. And so what was that like for you? Um, I understand that when you researched it, you You tried to enroll in this therapy, but you were denied. What— how did you overcome that?

At the time, I didn't. I was so down and defeated, and I did not have fight in me to pursue getting the therapy. The facility where I was going to do the treatment was only one of 2 in the United States, and it happened to be in my state. I was denied because they, quote, did not want to be liable for a blind person, quote. And as I said, it's so important for us to advocate for ourselves or have an advocate in our corner and not let the disability be the reason that we are denied for the therapy just because they're unfamiliar with someone in that situation.

So what did you learn about yourself through this process? And, and were there any breakthroughs that you can talk about other than convincing the powers that be that this therapy could apply to you, which was a, a real breakthrough in and of itself.

I researched ketamine therapy for many years after that, and the more I researched, the more I became interested, and I got the opportunity in 2024 I was approved medically to partake in the therapy, and I really have seen so much of a difference in how I spiral or how I react to spiraling. I know that if I had had the ketamine therapy years ago, it would have lifted me out of that place. And that's all about just finding that tool that worked for me. And it has just been such a helpful aid in my life.

So in my happiness work, one thing that has been impressed upon me is the biggest difference between happy and unhappy people is our habits. And so if we can replace, identify and replace unhelpful habits with helpful habits, that makes a lot of difference. And sometimes we need assistance to break free of the getting stuck in that negativity loop and reliving and repeating those experiences. And so Ketamine therapy and EMDR for you gave you that extra support and ability to break free of the loops.

Yes, and it helps also to have a prayer partner or accountability partner. Even a therapist that you trust in your corner. And I cannot stress how important it is to have a therapist that you connect with. I've talked to so many people who have done therapy online, and they say, I did a couple of sessions, it didn't work for me. And I say, did you feel that you connected with your therapist? No, I was just talking to them. So it's very important to just listen to yourself, find someone that you feel understands what you're going through.

That's such great advice. Do you have any other parting words of encouragement for our listeners as we close?

I would say that even though the journey can be long and arduous. I can say from my own personal experience that I have come so far in years. And if you put the work in, you will get your results. We reap what we sow, and you will see those, those benefits. But we do have to put the work in, and it's hard. But once you come through and you get into the other side, you will feel like you're just able to exhale and say, wow, I've done this and I would like to do more. So just keep on keeping on. And just even though it's hard, talk to your person. And most importantly, I would say listen to yourself. You are the only one who can change things internally. We cannot control what other people do. We cannot control their choices, but we can control our own, and we can control our thoughts. And I think listening to ourselves and our— if you want to call it intuition— that's the most important thing,

right? And that is Believing that your intuition is valid and trusting yourself and trusting the process, no matter what other people might say, because you know yourself better than anyone else. And I think another piece of that you were alluding to is being intentional. Doing the work on purpose,

right?

Yeah. Well, Erin, thank you so much for joining us today, and if you need support, I will tell you that I do one-on-one happiness coaching. I can also help you find resources, you can reach out to me at [email protected]. And Erin, are you open to any discussions with people that want to know about ketamine therapy?

Absolutely. If anyone would like to know more about experiences with EMDR, or the ketamine therapy, I can help you find resources. But I would also be happy to talk with people about it and help them find what might be right for them. So if anybody would like to reach out to me, my email address is eemoore@ knology, K-N-O-L-O-G-Y dot net. So that is [email protected].

And that email address will be in the show notes. And so be sure to check those show notes and reach out to me or Erin. Thank you for joining us today, Erin, and Everybody take care. Come back again in next month for another episode of Get What You Need and Feel Good About It. Thank you for joining me today on Get What You Need and Feel Good About It. Remember, When you speak up for yourself assertively, you will get what you need and feel good about it. You will also be showing respect for yourself and for the other people in your life who are important to you. Until next time, try thinking about it like Stephanie LaHart says it.

When compassion is all you need.

Say what you mean, mean what you say. But don't say it mean.

Before it gets too late. And the only way to do this is with hope, not hate. Yes, the only way to do this is with hope, not hate.