Foreign.

I'm Darian Slayton Fleming and thank you for joining me on get what you need and feel good about it. Do you find it difficult to ask.

For what you need?

Do you frequently feel misunderstood? Do you have a problem or cause that you would like to learn to manage more effectively? What makes it so hard for us to tell each other how we feel and how do we speak up for ourselves so we get what we need and feel good about it? How do we do this respectfully so that we honor the needs and feelings of others? Together we'll explore tips, strategies and resources that, when used mindfully and consistently, will improve our results and enrich our relationships.

Hello and welcome back. Have to get what you need and feel good about it. Today we are going to talk about codependence and we'll talk in depth about what that means. And it is a dynamic in relationships that can be pretty confusing and unsettling at times. And there are ways to make peace with ourselves and others about that. So today I have invited Abigail Gazda to join us to talk about her in depth experience and knowledge about the topic of codependence. Abigail is a public speaker and enjoys traveling the world to share her knowledge and expertise expertise and inspire people to pursue the dreams that they would love to live. She is a proud Hoosier from Indiana. She's a published author and a content creator and she produces a podcast called Hearts Unleashed. She also has moments that she sends out, meditation moments. And Abigail has written a book called Alchemizing judgment and chapter 11 in that book is about the topic of codependence. All of Abigail's information will be in the show notes for you. And so now I would just like to welcome Abigail. Abigail, thank you for joining us. Thank you.

I am so excited and honored to be here. I really appreciate the invitation.

Let's begin by just familiarizing our listeners with the terms that we are talking about because codependence is really part of a continuum. So let's talk about the terms which I see as dependence, interdependence, independence and codependence. So could you talk about that continuum and define some of those terms for us in any order?

Yeah, definitely. In fact, I will go in an order in a sort of tiered order of natural development and evolution and sort of distinguish them in a way that may be some of your listeners first time hearing them presented in this context and again as a gradual evolution. So obviously being obviously first being dependence of and the way I refer to this is if you don't take care of me, I will die. Kind of dependence, like infant and elderly. Someone who truly needs a constant care, or there is, you know, grave consequence. And then codependence is more of a leaning on, meaning if you move, I will tip over. If you leave me, I will follow over. I won't be able to. And it's more of an emotional care than a physiological care. So it's not, I'm gonna starve. I can't, you know, hygiene, take care of myself. It's emotionally, I am dependent on somebody, or mentally dependent. Right. We. We expect those to care, take care of us. And so. And then third, being independent, which is, I am standing on my own two feet, I feel as though I can care for myself. And I'm only speaking. I'm gonna. I'm gonna add another layer in a moment. But independence being, I can take good care of myself. And then the interdependence being the concept of independent people agreeing upon. We are better together. And we as humans are very tribal species. We're a very communal species. We can thrive collectively. And we tend to. We live longer lives. We usually lead happier lives than in isolation. And that's where independence and interdependence begin to become a more important conversation. And that you can still have community or village or tribe in a very codependent way, too, which is a slippery slope. Now I want to add the layer of our emotional development, meaning, obviously, we all start dependent. It's very natural that we become codependent as we age, where, okay, we're youngsters and we can feed ourselves, we can wipe ourselves. We can start to do these things where we take care of ourselves. And obviously, there are many stories of children having to become independent much sooner than typical, or we might say sooner than they should or need to or have to. But the shift from codependent, some people don't really ever make the shift from codependent to independent. And I mean emotionally independent. And I also want to add that some people become independent as a trauma response. We become hyper independent, where we can't receive help. And that really is as detrimental as being overly codependent, because now we've lost the benefits of existing in a supportive structure, receiving support, offering support. I love this phrase. It's not mine, and I don't remember where I heard it, but everybody wants a village, but nobody wants to be a villager. And I think that's a very important piece of this conversation because many of us want the support and help of others, or we at least want to be seen and heard by others. But, but we don't do much seeing and hearing or we don't, you know, return, return the care or the favor. But I would love to just speak to one, one more aspect of the interdependence again to. For people who go to independence as a trauma response or a coping mechanism or a survival mechanism, it can be a lot of emotional work to shift into interdependence. Because maybe people giving had been weaponized in our. In their lifetime. Maybe we became indebted to others because we received from them. You know, I mean, there's tons of countless reasons why it feels unsafe to ask for support and receive it and actually even enjoy it. That interdependence is a real emotional, a high emotional intelligence sort of IQ there that is necessary for that to be a healthy relationship type, if that makes sense.

But I'm struck by that idea of the trauma response that that generates a fierce independence and how I think people don't feel safe to engage in interdependent ways and there's a fear that they're going to get hurt again. And I am in relationship with somebody who is just bound and determined that he is never going to be in a relationship where he might get hurt again. And, and I wondering what you think about that, because I feel like that determination leaves us isolated and lonely and angry. And when we're unable to receive love in, in any form, what do you think about that? About how would somebody overcome that?

Yes, most definitely. I can answer that, both personally and professionally, because at the age of 27, I went through divorce. And that was the darkest season of my life, navigating that. And a few years after that, I was very lovingly called out by my coach at the time. And there's a term called relationship anorexia, which is that hyper independence or, and, or isolation where we're purposely not pursuing relationships and specifically romantic relationships to avoid getting our heartbroken or being betrayed. You know, whatever we fear and in relationship, we're avoiding that. Therefore we're completely avoiding relationships. Right. And so this coach called me out because I was certainly ailing about not having relationship and missing that. And he said to me, you can't. No one, no one can guarantee that they won't break your heart. Even if they absolutely love you, they might die and that will break your heart and they can't prevent that. Right. And so he said, you can't win at the game of love if you are unwilling to lose at the game of love. That you just. If you're not. You can't play if you're not willing to lose and feel losing. And I had to think on that for a while. I didn't like that answer at the time, and it helped me begin to soften my rigid boundaries and barriers. I had put up the walls I had put up to protect myself from heartbreak because I was breaking my own heart by isolating myself. And so I don't know which was worse. I had to decide, and I certainly did. I certainly chose love. After that.

Just learning to lead with love is a whole nother conversation.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

While you were speaking, too, I was thinking about how most of the time, when we talk about codependence, it seems like we talk about the person who, by definition, may be the one that needs the additional support and assistance and how that creates so many dynamics of resistance and resentment. And we can talk about that. The other side of that perspective is the person who is the one that provides the support. It's been my experience in my own life and in talking to clients, that the person who's providing that support sometimes seems to get really invested in.

Being.

The one who knows what's best for us and thinking that we need to do it their way. And sometimes their way, if they don't understand how I accommodate myself and how. And my need for autonomy can also interfere with interdependence. Can you talk. Do you understand what I mean? And can you talk about that?

I'm. Yeah, totally tracking, and I would love to shed some light on that, because codependency is a. An equation, if you will. Okay, now, if. If they are a listener and you're holding, use. Let's use both hands and put palm to palm. That is an identical match, right? Palm to palm. We're seeing both hands sort of shape. Take the same shape of each other. But now if we go fingertip to fingertip and we interlock those fingertips, this is a better depiction of a codependent relationship. The. The wovenness, the enmeshment there, right? And those our fingers fit together like a puzzle piece rather than a perfect match. So there's two types of people in this codependent relationship. The need. Need, let's call it needy. And the needed, or caregiver and care given. You know, whichever we want to play with. However, so the caregiver, the one that you were kind of referencing here very often is a martyr archetype. They get their sense of identity by being needed. It's where they feel their sense of purpose, their sense of relevance. And so that archetype of person needs someone who needs them. Is that tracking so far? Yes, Juicy. Right. So. And. And usually the needy, the caregiver has a need, whether that's physical, emotional, sometimes financial. Right. There's all sorts of ways we end up in the position we do. And usually that's because they've gone from dependence to codependence and they have hardly ever touched independence. Right. So this is a developmental conversation emotionally. And then obviously there's physical. When someone has a disability, that is, it must be factored in. Right. Now we look at what sort of support structures can that person have? Can we really set that person to. Up to be as independent as possible? But the caregiver has no interest in you being independent. Does that mean. Right. Yes, it would eliminate them as relevant. So that's where it becomes a really confusing sort of messy situation. And I know we'll get into conversations about boundaries, but that. That can be really disruptive. You know, boundaries can be really disruptive to a codependent relationship.

Right, right. And then the person who is the need be.

Yeah, great way to say that.

Has a need and a. A true inner desire to be as actualized and independent as possible while still accepting the care.

Yeah.

And the word that comes to mind for me here is autonomy. And autonomy. One definition of it, and maybe you will have different ones, is our right to make decisions and direct our care. And I know that even in my own life I have learned a lot about communication and I try to be very careful and respectful, but about expressing my need to be allowed to think for myself and ask for options rather than being told what I need or don't need. And. And it gets really messy there too, with the. The person who is the need provider. And it somehow. And I think when we try to have those conversations with our loved ones who are in positions of care, they say, well, of course I understand that. But it. But they're. They're. The way they go about helping sometimes doesn't seem to feel that way. What would you say about autonomy and all of that?

Yeah, so well said, so well articulated. Much appreciated. Because, I mean, I. I know I have experience with that on both sides. And observing or helping clients or being in those situations. It'. It's a. Let's start by acknowledging what a delicate situation it can be. Right. The dance we do to one. Some people don't even know they're doing that and they're unaware of their impact. And the need be may have Never known another way. So it's confusing. But they might also not have a solution to suggest or request. So it's. It's very challenging, very difficult. And your. I believe your question was sort of around the autonomy. Right. I got a little off track.

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah. And so some of us have never known autonomy and that was what sort of sparked that response. And, and, and so to try to do that may develop or may require some. Some self development, some. Some introspection on the need be end. Right. And so we begin that journey. And another piece I think is a great place to start is by asking some questions. Like let's say it is a person who is blind. If only they had sight, they would be treated perhaps as an independent person. Right. Is the only factor. So their needs are assistance with sight, not assistance with thinking or decision making or preference. Right.

And so.

Right. So to get the caregiver to even perceive that is. Is sort of difficult because they have years of practice or momentum just caring for that person, therefore making decisions for them. On again, pref. Very based on preference. And so we first have to sort of educate. In fact, I'm going to insert something here. I have a communication style called Oreo and I haven't cleared this with the Oreo cookie or anything. So we start by seeing something and we owe offer to the person. So let's say this is the need B to the caregiver. Right. You know, hi caregiver, I see something. May I make a r reflection? So we're in Oreo. Offer reflect. That person may say no and then we're stuck right there. Right. Hopefully they say yes. And the reflection being, I notice you're making decisions. So we're educating e educate. We actually need to educate that person on what's going on. Okay. So I notice that you are making decisions on my behalf that I would like to make myself. I may need your assistance in whatever, you know, let's. We're sticking with blind. Right. So I may need assistance on the computer filling out this form or you know, applying for this thing. But I would like to be the one to make the decision. And so we educate that they're doing something they may not even be aware of. And then again, o is offer a solution. So may we do this together? May you please ask me first before you make a decision on my behalf. And so this is a constructive way to start tough conversations that. Because this can be very upsetting for the caregiver, you're taking away their relevance. You're not in A fight about. You're not in a fight about your preference. You're in a fight about their whole identity and relevance. And that's a very sensitive topic. And sorry, this, I think what's so important for the need be is this is not your fault, but it is your responsibility for your quality of life. If you want to, if you want your power, you're. You might have to take it back and take it back tactfully. Right. Because you, it doesn't mean you love that person less. It doesn't mean you're not grateful, but you do deserve your autonomy and sovereignty.

Right. So how do we overcome what. When I try to express what I need as respectfully or as possible and my need provider gets just defensive.

Yes.

And, and how do we overcome that and get to a point where we can collaborate?

That is a great question and a very predictable outcome of beginning to set boundaries. Right. And so we get to see and hear and validate that person's experience because that's what we would want. Right. So let's say that person becomes upset. I caregiver. I see you, I hear you, I understand, I love you. If that's appropriate. Right. Because usually our caregivers are family members or we've been with them for years and years. Right. I love you and I'm asking for that. Also, this is, and here's the thing, acknowledge your experience. This is very scary for me to say. I feel very uncomfortable right now. I don't want to be doing this. And it's very important to me. Me. Right. So we have, I think people confuse what power is because power can be very. There's so much power in vulnerability. This isn't fu and f this and I demand it be this way. We're not doing that. It's. It's very raw to communicate these types of things and to set a boundary. Now as we do this and the person is upset, they may throw a fit, they may react in a silly manner to start, but we're gonna. That's usually temporary and it's usually emotional. And so we're gonna allow for a cool down period. You don't need to come up with a resolution in that moment. You might just be presenting an idea, a change to them and you let that settle in and maybe revisit the conversation. So spaciousness in these, experience in these, in these shifts are very important. And I want to make sure to add that there is a difference between setting a boundary and maintaining a boundary.

Yes.

So you can't just say I want Things to change and then never address it if it doesn't change. And then be resentful. We have to, we might have to remind and remind and remind because if someone's been caregiving for 1, 3, 5, 10 years, they have 10 years worth of practice being the way that they. They'd automatically be. And we're gonna adjust it on with them and on their behalf. And probably in an. When they, when they would have rather stayed the way they were. We have, we're building a new muscle and so we have to be diligent with maintaining that boundary. Hey, I want to offer and reflect that you're doing that thing you do. And I want to offer and reflect that this isn't my wishes. And I'd love to. You know, we, we talked about. I like setting up a key phrase that isn't hurtful. So I might tell you, caregiver, if I notice you're doing that thing, I might say, thank you. No, thank you. And if you hear me say thank you. No, thank you, that is me reestablishing my boundary. Not, you know, like a highly inter, highly activated way. Like that's not effective. So thank you. No, thank you. Is my cue to you that you're crossing the boundary that we had previously agreed upon. And listen, it's not cute, it's not perfect, it's not textbook. I know it gets messy. And if we want the quality of life we've set out for, it takes diligence.

I am struck by the comments you made that were really in the form of imessages. I'm noticing this. I want to remind you that we've talked about this. I still need to discuss options. I still need to be part of this process. And I also want to remind our listeners that I've referred to these imessages in previous episodes using the language around non violent communication, which is really a beautiful technique that allows us to express our feelings and describe the experience that's impacting us, express our need and make a request. And this is another way of, of explaining that. And I believe that the repetition that you refer to so often with my clients, and it might not even be about a struggle over somebody doing something for me. My sister's come, keeps calling me and I should have told her I was tied up and I silenced my voiceover, but not my. Anyway, that's okay. So often I hear from my clients that why do I have to keep telling them why if I've said it once? Why don't they just do it?

Yeah.

And, and it's because people learn through repetition. It's because we are human and we, we have, all of us have needs and, and so that the ex. We can't read minds and nothing in life ever gets resolved in one sitting. Repetition is key.

Totally. Totally.

So we've danced around the next couple of questions. How can I ask for what I need and feel good about having to ask for it and feel good about directing my care and asking for the outcomes I want?

I love this question at this moment of the conversation because we've talked quite explicitly about some strategy and what's predictable. And I think at this point being sure to point out that when you do these things, to also celebrate yourself, celebrate the wins, acknowledge yourself for the courage, the vulnerability, the boundary setting, the practicing of all of these things. So we need to solidify success in our subconscious mind. Because if we've struggled with dependence or codependence and perhaps the caregiver type that we've been discussing throughout this conversation, we've probably felt defeated more often than not in our lifetimes. So it's kind of default to expect outcomes less desirable than what we would hope for. Right. It's kind of default for us to expect worse outcomes or expect to be disappointed or let down or whatever. And so we. To solidify success in the subconscious mind, we really have to be willing, willing to visualize the best outcome and then allow ourselves to receive it. And I think this is also a really great moment to talk about the discomfort of receiving the discomfort of getting our way. How many of us have been trained to believe that getting our way is selfish?

Exactly. And we often are told, you're so ungrateful when I ask for what I need. Yeah, I'm ungrateful.

Yeah, yeah. And that's so it can feel so demoralizing to you or diminishing. Right. Dehumanizing even, because you deserve you. The, oh man, I love that this came in is the hierarchy, the made up imaginary hierarchy of people that we assign ourselves and we assign each other. You are as deserving as anyone else. There's no one above you and below you. But I imagine that either dealing with dependence or codependence for extended periods of time would make you feel mostly below people, as if there's no one else further or lower than you. And so it's, it's hard, but we have to look in both directions. Right. And imagine there is no hierarchy that is made up. You do deserve, well being. You do deserve the most quality of life and that it's Your God given right, you know, and depending on your faith, it's just your human right to feel good, to feel love, to have choice, to have autonomy. That is not a privilege, that is a right. And I think, Darian, you provide this podcast. These conversations are a way for your listeners to learn and practice getting what they want and enjoying it and receiving and all of that. Because this is a beautiful training on how to start to set a new trajectory in motion.

Right. And you mentioned, we talked about gratitude and celebrating ourselves for having the courage to ask for what we need. And also, even though we may have to navigate that journey from resentment to collaboration, I want to acknowledge the need provider and acknowledge that we also want to express gratitude when they remember to collaborate with us and offer us our autonomy when they do provide the actual physical or sensory or emotional or financial need that we have that to celebrate and thank them and say, I really love how we are becoming collaborators here and thank you for. For, thank you for being in relationship in this way where we can grow and be even more cohesive.

Well, wouldn't you know you're talking about interdependence.

That's right. So is there a little more you want to say about interdependence? I mean, let me just say that I think. I think of interdependence. We're a team. Yeah. One of us has a gift in one area and the other one has a gift in another area. And if I have a physical disability and you have the gift of helping me overcome an obstacle, I want to have the gift of appreciating and allowing and collaborating and saying thank you.

Okay. So, yes, Partnership, collaboration. And here's the thing, that the person with a disability is also a contribution.

Yes.

Not just through appreciation. You're. You affirm that person's identity as a caregiver. So you are. Without you, they are not them in this relationship. Okay. So, so, but we, the need be, would have to see ourselves that way first to be seen that way. Now this is true for everyone, everywhere, all the time. If I want to be seen as a life coach, I have to see myself as a life coach first.

Yes.

That is true for whatever identity we want. Now if we want to be more independent and interdependent, we have to see ourselves that way and life will take form around that self image.

We're also talking about self love.

Yeah.

And, and, and realizing that where I am enough. I am okay and I'm okay even if I need support.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think in the disability world, people get we start to resent having to be the educator.

Oh yeah. You know, you're reminding me. I think it's a corporate sort of tactic, but there something called like a feedback sandwich. Right. It's. It's the. It's expression of. Of gratitude and acknowledgment first, then the feedback and then gratitude and acknowledgement. So.

Right.

Caregiver, I love that you do this. Thank you so much. And here's how we could probably do it better or together and thank you so much. Yeah. You know.

Right, right. True.

Yes. And you got to remember the part of the caregiver identity and relevance is that they. They might be helping you, but they at the same time might feel unseen, unheard and underappreciated as as much as you're feeling unseen, unheard and underappreciated.

Okay, so do you have any final words about interdependence or overcoming codependence that you want to share before we close and then we'll talk about your quotes?

Yeah. Nothing in particular. I feel like this was such a fantastic dance of a conversation and, and yes, my quotes will sort of put the period at the end of the sentence, but I certainly just want to thank you and the listeners for. This topic is great in theory and very challenging in its application. And I want to acknowledge that, that if anybody is practicing these shifts in their life and practicing and maintaining boundaries, I just cannot encourage you and acknowledge you enough that I see you, I hear you, truly, I. I celebrate you and that the reward comes after the courage and so to. To affirm that it might feel scary at the start, but that it's worth it every time if you want to.

Receive support and navigating your journey to autonomy and self love and collaboration. Both Abigail and I offer one on one coaching and we have publications. So check the show notes because you are welcome to reach out to either one of us if you would like. Support. Support to. To grow and evolve in these areas. And as we close. Abigail, I know you have a couple of quotes to share with us that will leave us with some inspiration for moving forward.

Yes, definitely. And I want to. I had said it earlier in the conversation, but highlighting interdependence means we are better together. And so as you navigate these shifts in your caregiver Caregiver relationships, remember we are better together. See that person as an individual person and see yourself as an individual person. And then one of my favorite quotes that sort of is a download came to me as I was practicing it myself is gentleness is the key ingredient in the recipe of success. I am a lifelong athlete, I played college basketball and I am a professional self critic. I am Olympic level at being tough on myself and what I have learned over the years is that being tough on myself isn't as effective as being kind to myself. However, being harsh was more practiced so I really had to decondition inner critic and recondition kindness, tenderness, gentleness and I live a 1000% more easeful life in flow and enjoy and I cannot recommend it enough.

Right. You're reminding me that I wanted to mention that I will be offering, starting on January 8th a repetition of my course called Let go, forgive and set yourself free. And Abigail reminded me of this because she talked about kindness. I think kindness is a is an is an aspect of gentleness. And check out the book Love as a way of Life by Gary Chapman. Gary Chapman also wrote the book called the five love languages. But in Love as a way of Life he outlines seven characteristics of love that enhance relationships and the first one is kindness. So thank you for mentioning that.

Of course.

Thank you Abigail. Thank you for your wonderful insights today and for joining us. And look for Abigail's information in the show notes.

Thank you Abigail.

I hope to stay in touch.

Same and thank you so much. And listeners, thank you for your time and attention. I appreciate it.

Tune in again in January for another insightful topic. Take care.

Thank you for joining me today on get what you need and feel good about it. Remember, when you speak up for yourself assertively, you will get what you need and feel good about it. You will also be showing respect for yourself and for the other people in your life who are important to you. Until next time, try thinking about it. Like Stephanie Lahart says it.

Say what.

You mean, mean what you say, but don't say it.

Change the world before it gets too late. And the only way to do this is with hope, not a hate. Yes, the only way to do this.

Is with hope, not hate.