I'm Darian Slayton Fleming, and thank you for joining me on Get What You Need and feel good about it. Do you find it difficult to ask for what you need? Do you frequently feel misunderstood? Do you have a problem or cause that you would like to learn to manage more effectively? What makes it so hard for us to tell each other how we feel? And how do we speak up for ourselves so we get what we need and feel good about it? How do we do this respectfully so that we honor the needs and feelings of others? Together we'll explore tips, strategies and resources that when used mindfully and consistently, will improve our results and enrich our relationship. Hello and welcome back to get what you need and feel good about it. This is episode four entitled how Can I Possibly Ask for Help? Determine to ask for a little help from your friends. And today my guest is Chris Cook, who is a visually impaired technology instructor at the Oregon Commission for the Blind in Portland, Oregon. So welcome Chris. Thank you for joining us today. And I know you have just a really interesting journey and I'm excited to have us share that with our listeners. So welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

I was wondering if you could tell us a little about when and how you and I met and where you were on your personal journey at that time.

Yeah, sure. So I had graduated college the first time and had gotten a teaching job that I held for twelve years, teaching music. And I really thought I wanted to do something more. I felt like kids were learning to play their instruments, they were taking them up and then stopping out on lessons and I just felt like there was more to life than that particular job. And along about that time I had some health issues and I found a lot of answers through natural medicine. And so the idea grew for me to first I wanted to become a dietitian, but then I realized that I would only be involved with patient care for people who were ill and I may not be able to do as much to help them get better in as many ways as I wanted to. So I thought, what about becoming a Naturopathic doctor? Because I just loved working with my Naturopathic doctor. So I decided to enter the graduate program, which was Accommodation Master's and doctorate degree, and I did two years of that program and then I moved to Portland for various reasons and the program in Portland at National University of Natural Medicine was a better fit for me. And I didn't know about the Oregon Commission for the Blind where I work now, but I did find out about the agency where Darian worked and they would provide some orientation and mobility instruction and I could get some help advocating for myself in my school. Program. So I remember meeting Darian for that first appointment in her office and just really outlining what my goals were. And since no one else had done this before in terms of a Naturopathic doctor course of study for a totally blind person, we had lots to talk about. Wow.

So you were sort of at a transition point, and you were already very independent and educated. When you realized that you wanted to explore a career change, what did that feel like? What kinds of feelings did you have about feeling like you had come to a point where you needed to make a change? Was that scary? Was that frustrating? It sounds like you also did some pretty good problem solving at that time, and that might be one of your strengths. That's kind of part of what we're promoting here is the ability to do some creative problem solving so you can seek solutions or work around solutions when you think that you might be exploring doing something that people think you can't do, right?

Yes, I love problem solving. It's one of my favorite things to do. And yes, the feelings around that time were, I want to do something more. I want to do something that will impact people in a big way, because I think there's nothing more important, very nearly nothing more important than your physical health and emotional well being. And so I really wanted to help others find what I had found. And so it was just very exciting. And because it was problem solving, I was really excited about that part too. I wouldn't say that I was too afraid. I just did a lot of research, a lot of informational interviewing, a lot of talking with other people. There were a handful of blind doctors already. And so I talked to people and found out what were the resources they used or what were the problem solving techniques that they implemented. So I was very excited about that. And that really did appeal to things that I love doing, is research and problem solving and being creative, not taking no for an answer. That's kind of what I was feeling at the time.

So you had to adopt an attitude of determination, which is something else we've been talking about in this podcast. Did you run into people, especially at the Naturopathic college or in your own personal life, who tried to discourage you from becoming a Naturopathic physician? And how did you remain determined to pursue that goal anyway? And how did you overcome those concerns?

Well, yes, there were some people who didn't overtly discourage me, but also didn't want to sort of deal with it. Maybe I would go away, or maybe after a couple of years I would give up or something. And there was some transition among the staff at the school at the time, and when things kind of settled down and they realized I wasn't going away, everybody was fine, but I think the biggest thing I can say is that I had answers before they had the questions. And I know that sounds a bit arrogant, but if someone asks you how you're going to do this or that clinically as a doc, how you're going to visualize something, and even how you're going to study the various courses, you have to have answers ahead of time or find people who have them. Because without those answers, people are less likely to want to invest in solving your own issues. So I always try to answer the questions before they asked. And that involved getting into two graduate programs. The first one in Washington, where I started, and the second one in Portland. And so when I encountered these folks, I would just say, here are my strengths. I'm a wonderful listener. I do problem solving and research. There's a lot more to being a doctor than seeing. 90% of what you do is with your brain and with your ears and with your other senses. And when people came to see that that was really how it was and that they needed to have a mindset shift, then they were willing to come on board with me, but I wasn't willing to give up. And I also thought that if I could convince them to keep an open mind, that would be my best ally. In fact, someone said to me, what is your biggest barrier in medical school? And I said people with closed minds.

Wow, what a great answer. What a great insight. So can I put you on the spot? And can you tell us about a time when you actually went through that process with a doubter and were able to overcome that with that person?

Sure. One example comes to mind that I experienced before I was in the clinic. I was with some students and the attending physician, and we were introduced to a patient, and this person's hand was really sweaty. I mean, really sweaty. It sounds funny to mention that, but it just was. And so I took note of that, and we did the intake with the patient. And after the folks left, I said, the patient left and we were discussing the case. I said, I realized I'm not even on this shift, and I'm just a student who hasn't even entered the clinic yet. But didn't you notice that that person's hand was really sweaty? Don't you think that's OD. I mean, everybody kind of gets nervous going to the doctor, but I think that was a little bit ridiculously sweaty. So then they carried on. Oh, yeah, I guess so. And so we continue talking and talking, and I wouldn't give up on it because I thought it was so unique and needed to be solved. And so I said, Just want to mention again, I just really think this is unusual. So they called the patient back in and they asked about the patient's thyroid medication. And anybody that may have had some thyroid issues. Sometimes if your thyroid is one way or the other, especially overactive, you can tend to sweat quite a bit. And so they ask the patient, have you been sweating kind of excessively or what? Oh yeah, well, hey, why don't we address the thyroid medication here and dial it back and things? And of course I ask them other questions and so forth, but a sweaty hand. I've given that example more to people to help them understand that just by that one clue of the person that I shook hands with them. And there's a lot you can tell by a handshake by the way I uncovered something that needed to be addressed for this person. I would think of many examples people slumping in their chair or their voice changed and they're looking out the window because they're distracted, or just little things that you pick up on. Notwithstanding all the ways that we evaluate what's happening with people, not just looking at them, but by listening to them, I loved working with kids with behavior issues because they were right out there for you to see. There was no holding back. It was marvelous working with the kids with behavior issues. And the families knew that I cared about their kids and they immediately had my trust because they could see that I was invested in their kids. So there's so much more I could say. But those are some examples.

So in your profession and in my profession, people come to us for help. And in the example of those parents and that patient with the thyroid issue, how do you think that they were feeling when they came to see you and the fears that they were having and knowing that they just didn't know all the answers and they needed help? So what do you think it's like for people to ask for help when it's not something that comes naturally to them? And how would you go about helping people learn to ask for help? What are some things that people can think about in terms of what they might get out of asking for help, if they can overcome that fear?

Sure. So I heard a story once of a man walking down the sidewalk and he came across his friend whose dog was laying on the porch and the dog was whining. And the guy asked the friend, hey, why is the dog whining? And the friend said, oh, well, he's laying on a nail. And the guy said, well, why doesn't he get up? And the friend said, oh, well, he must not be hurting badly enough. And it sounds like a really kind of a bit of a callous answer, but sometimes all of us just have to get to the point where things are not sustainable the way they are. The parents with the behavior, the kids with the behavior issues, their kid was acting out in such a way that it disrupted school and social interactions and different things. And they needed answers, and they weren't getting them from other places. And so they were willing to take a chance on something that held some hope. And because I positioned myself as a compassionate doc with a heart for kids who wanted the best for them. And there were so many different ways we could work with parents, and I worked with the whole family. It made them feel more comfortable asking for help because they knew that what I was offering was different than what wasn't working. And so then they had to think about, oh, well, here's this blind lady meeting with us. I wonder what that's about? And so I would explain how I worked and how I did things. And the fear of asking for help didn't last long for them because after the first couple of visits with the compassionate interactions that we had with solutions that they could hold on to, right away, they felt like they could trust the process. And I think that's what it comes down to, is trusting the process of the person who is helping, but also deciding that something needs to change.

So when you don't know what the options are, you don't always know what to ask for.

Right.

And so when a person is new to even realizing that he or she needs help, but is so used to being independent and doing things for him or herself right. How would you suggest that a person find out what's available when they don't know what's available?

Sure, I think talking with others, having hopefully the person has some support, people in their corner that they can talk to and say, hey, I'm really struggling with this or that. Do you know of anything that I can check out? Do you know of any resources? Anybody I can contact? Any ideas? I think that's what the parents might have done too, in my case, or in working with me. But I think communicating with others, letting others into your world as much as you can, as much as you're able to feel like you can do that, because we all have information that's different. And so I think just asking the people that you're close to, or even your friends, and that if they have any ideas, I think that's how and of course, Google is one of our best friends, so we all look things up, and that could lead you down a good path. Or, you know, I think reaching out and making yourself a little bit vulnerable. But just to say, this is where I need some help and support and ideas.

So can you tell me or us about a time when you had to ask for help and how did you go about it and what was the response and how did it turn out?

There's so many times that I've asked for help, whether it's a simple thing like getting a ride as a blind person. They don't want me out driving, so might be out getting a ride. It might be going shopping. One thing that comes to mind that doesn't have anything to do with work is that a family member in my life had passed away, and I was not doing well emotionally. And my Naturopath at the time said, well, have you reached out to anyone to tell them that you're hurting? And I'll not really, because I was doing my doctor thing, and I was strong, and I was holding it together. And she said, I think it would be really good for you if you would ask someone that, you know, if they would fix you a meal. And, wow, I hadn't thought of that because I was soldiering on. I was raised to be independent, and you just kept on going. So I went to one of my friends, who is now one of my coworkers, and she's known for her awesome and excellent cooking, and I said, this is an assignment from my Naturopathic doctor. She wants me to ask you if you would mind fixing me a pot of soup or something. And my friend was like, oh, my goodness, of course. Why didn't I do that sooner? And it was just an amazing response of so warm and cozy, and she was sorry she hadn't thought of it. And I had never been the one to ask for things like that, so it was an emotional ask, which was a little bit harder for me than a, hey, I need a ride. That's a sort of physical, tangible thing, but to appeal to my emotions. Just one other thing on a lighter side, I was developing my business as a doc, and my assignment from a job coach that I was working with at the time, she said, I want you to meet 15 people in the next week. And I thought, oh, you've got to be kidding. I may seem outgoing, but I can be an introvert when it comes to putting myself out there with social situations. I said, really? And so I told the same friend who cooked me the pot of soup. I said, okay, my assignment this week is to meet 15 people. She said perfect. I have the best way for you to meet 15 people. Come dragon boating with us. So I did, and I loved it, and I did that for, like, about three years, but it was asking for help in another way, in a professional way, kind of. So those were outside of my comfort zone, but they really paid off in helping me grow emotionally and socially and just taking the chance, being a little vulnerable, and really finding that the response was amazing, even more than I could have hoped for.

In fact, it seems like when someone's going through a hard time, those in our support system don't always know what we need or what to do. People are not mind readers. No, people want to help, but they don't know what to do and they don't want to be intrusive.

Right.

And you found out when you asked for help that first time that the person who responded was excited to help, was relieved to know that there was a way she could be helpful. And it sort of broke the ice. And it also made it easier for you to ask again.

Yes, absolutely. Kind of testing the waters, especially when it's a little bit more vulnerable place for you.

Right. So sometimes starting with something small and this is what I tell my clients when we're learning a new skill, if your overall goal is to become more assertive, that's a big picture thing. And maybe the person that you need to be most assertive with, that feels a little bit intimidating. So sometimes I suggest that you start with something small and in your case, ask someone that you trust the first time, because then you experience a success.

Yes.

The people who we want help from, who might even be interested in being part of our solution, often don't know how to help. And it occurs to me that this leads us to a question about businesses, services, and I'm thinking recreation or employment where we want to be included, people with chronic health conditions, disabilities. We want to live life just like everyone else, but we have to educate people about how we are able to do that so they will feel comfortable inviting us in. And so this is really a question that might help potential employers and service providers learn to think outside the box, because it's not always us with the problem or the issue that need to think outside the box. We get pretty good at that. But helping people in our support system learn to think outside the box is really important. Do you have any ideas about how you would encourage an employer or a recreation provider to look at what they provide and become open to some creative brainstorming about how they can be inclusive?

Sure. I think it's important for them to realize that people with various health conditions or disabilities can do so much and so many things. And like you mentioned, we have all thought about how we do things. But just encouraging that open mindset and realizing that the person that you're considering hiring is the expert on themselves. And so just having an open mind to tap into that expertise and believing that by hiring someone who has a different way of doing things will only make a company stronger and more, as you say, more inclusive. But it really involves the creative and open mindset of the employer to realize that this person has probably figured out many ways that they can do the job that you're hiring for. But I just can't say enough about the open mind, about technology, about different strategies. It's such an individual thing. But at our agency, we're constantly educating employers about how to work with people in our case who are blind or visually impaired. But there's so many resources that we call upon to do our everyday tasks, and it's hard to be specific with such a broad question, but the mindset is everything. Can you have an open mind about this person? Because if you don't, it's going to be hard for everybody, right?

This is a good time to acknowledge the link that you sent me for the Oregon Commission for the Blind part of their website that shares resources. And so check the show notes for this podcast, because the Oregon Commission for the Blind has an excellent collection of resources that can be helpful to clients as well as family members and potential service providers and employers. Relationships are so important, and once you get past the outside and get to know the person inside, the whole experience changes. This podcast might go out to students, and you were a student once and quite a while. Students are in the position of getting ready, they're planning their direction. And how would you advise a student who's new to asking systems for help, like a college? How would you advise them to advocate for themselves? What are some tips you can give?

Sure. So just as you said earlier, starting with baby steps of advocating in a non collegiate situation, you're out to eat and somebody offers you one thing and you say, no, actually, I would like this other thing, speaking up for yourself, even ordering food for yourself. I remember one time when I was quite young, I had never done that before. When you're a student, there's so much that you can do to be a part of your own process. When I was in my early graduate work, my physiology professor said, you are responsible for your own learning, so that personal responsibility is important, whatever you can do to be involved in your own educational process. I have the unique perspective of being around for my first college education before the Americans with Disabilities Act. And so there was no disability resource office, there was no nothing. I had to order my own books, get them recorded, if you can believe it. I always think that people should take as active apart as they can. So if you don't understand something that someone is telling you, or you don't understand a process, it's safe to say. Could you tell me more? I don't quite understand yet. I am trying to understand what you're telling me, learning to speak up in the moment. Could you please read the board, describe this. Could I sit in this particular spot because it's easier for me. As you mentioned earlier, people are not mind readers as much as I don't know if that'd be good or not, but they need to know what's on your mind. And it's okay to say, this is what's worked for me in the past. If you could consider helping me with this in this way, if there are any accessibility issues to what you're working with. People don't know what they don't know, starting with the small things, being a part of your own process. Just because there's a disability resource office doesn't mean that they're going to do everything for you. In fact, you're going to learn so much by doing things with them and being a partner with them and make friends. Be pleasant. Being pleasant is always a plus.

So, Chris, do you have any parting words for us about overcoming our fear and being determined to stick to our goal, even if it means asking for help?

Yes. I think gathering strength for all those advocacy and public education moments, it takes a lot of energy to do this. And whatever gives you strength that helps you fill your cup up again is important. And so if that's reading or writing music or cooking or knitting, it's really important to fill your cup up so that you have the strength and energy to move forward. People who know me know I don't take no for an answer in a nice way. So I'm always looking for, oh, well, if I can't get I go around something, over it, through it, under it, a tunnel. However it's going to happen, it will happen for me. Counting your blessings, whatever those are, we all have blessings, and that keeps us going during the hard times. Having some positive people in your life who you can share with and who can be a part of your life and you can encourage and have a two way friendship with, those are really encouraging for us, too. So don't give up and keep counting your blessings and realize there's always a way to do what you want to do.

Well, Chris, that seems like a really fitting place to end this interview. You have given us a lot of insight and you are a strong and resourceful woman. Thank you so much for joining us, Chris.

Thank you.

In closing, I would like to share this piece that Chris wrote when she was facing her decision about a career change. It's entitled duet of Grit and Grace. The duet of grit and grace sing together to create a life song. The grit to problem solve is smoothed by the grace to accept help. There is the ever present grit to do the uncommon and the grace to find joy in simple pleasures. There is a counterpoint between music and medicine, a lifelong passion for music and the desire to pursue a medical career. Can there be a marriage between two diverse and deeply felt callings? Can the first blind naturopathic physician restart a career after an intermission of four years to help young children who are the beacon of the future? Yet if medicine crescendos, can you hear the musician composing and arranging hymns that are the song of her heart. In the same life, there is a song that sings to lift up the composer and the listener, to bring healing to heart and soul to all who listen surely triumph in the end. Hope not hate when each stranger isn't. Thank you for joining me today on Get What You Need and feel good about it. Remember, when you speak up for yourself, assertively you will get what you need and feel good about it. You will also be showing respect for yourself and for the other people in your life who are important to you. Until next time, try thinking about it like Stephanie Lahart says it say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it. Mean yes. The only way to do this is with hope not.